soon, I shall dare for a harem with only tsunderes

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soon, I shall dare for a harem with only tsunderes

Post by vin-nii on Fri Aug 13, 2010 11:19 am

...pun aside

I'm not even going to put forth a good argument. but surely this rant will have some discussion points.

Shana...is annoying. Don't ask me why she just is. There's something within that bundle of tsundere characteristics that doesn't click with me.

A. She's too childish. Her overuse of acting incoherent tsuntsun-ing really comes to me as a child throwing a tantrum in the supermarket. This is perhaps further amplified by the fact that this is a battle anime of sorts (which, in no way compliments a horribly created love-triangle (square if you consider megane) since her bitching can really get in the way of plot development. It's like "the plot thickens... right after we hear Shana for bitch a bit".

B. She's got an class. This is kind of my own thing, but tsundere's gotta have class. Consider fate/stay Rin and School Rumble Eri. they have a oujou-sama air seaming out of their character. Even Hina is a capable of anything superwoman with style. This class is really fundamental to the whole tsuntsun business because their status quo somewhat restarins them from getting too territorial with their man. Shana on the other hand does not have such a demeanor and ugly jealously seams out of her like spiral energy. Of course, some characters also don't have much of this but still make it on my list because they are...

B2. Childhood friends. Or at least already related from before the story begins. There's nothing worse than a full-blown ball of jealousy with no restraint and the male lead can't handle the situation at all. You can also fault yuuji for this one since he ain't man enough

C. Stupid author. We simply don't see Shana in enough different situations for her personality to grow. When a situation arises, Shana has three options: to become a tsun, a dere or a tsundere. It feels really shallow that Shana doesn't really have another way to express herself, possibile since we seem the same kind of scenario in the anime over and over again without much change. Throw Shana into the deep end, and think of some creative reactions, will ya DX. I don't think I have ever seen Shana awaken to her maternal instincts or something along those lines.

D. A tsundere voiced by Kugimiya Rie immeadiate falls into the bratty ctaergory, and will have to prove herself otherwise (like Taiga). since Shana's plot doesn't have around too much that leaves her almost void of significant character growth.

and that's that XD

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Re: soon, I shall dare for a harem with only tsunderes

Post by PimpToad on Sat Aug 14, 2010 2:50 am

call me dumb, but that pun flew by me...

I agree with you that Shana was indeed annoying at the start (as with all tsundere characters), but she grew on me like how Taiga eventually became decent at the end.

A. Shana throws tantrums like a child because she is in fact a child. Her very sheltered lifestyle as well as her naivete with society in general defines her childish characteristics. Her tsundere characteristics did in fact stall plot development, but it sort of coincides with her character development which I'll cover in the later bullet point.

B. Well again she is but a mere child while your standard for the tsundere seems to fall under the 'ojou-sama' type character. Characters that are typically calm and collected with an air of elegance about them, but become your typical tsundere when exposed to their potential romantic interest. Shana's childish demeanor did get ugly at times, but that's what character development is for; which again will be covered in a later bullet point.

C. The first season of the anime pretty much had random villains and focused more on Shana's character development...at least as far as I can remember. She starts off as a typically generic tsundere character, lashing out at Yuji due to feelings she has yet to comprehend. Though as time passes, she gets past this extreme tsuntsun side and becomes more deredere as she understands this new feeling inside her. She eventually becomes 'normal' in the sense that she has dere reactions combined with tsun reactions when the male lead is being an idiot. I think it to be quite a leap compared to when she was first introduced and started to developing romantic feelings for Yuji.

D. Her 'Shana' voiced pretty much put Rie on the map imo. And the Shana anime never really got all that far into the plot since S2 was pretty much fillers all around...way to go JCStaff...

So Shana or Taiga?

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Re: soon, I shall dare for a harem with only tsunderes

Post by vin-nii on Sat Aug 14, 2010 4:41 am

call me whatever, but that was actually a pretty bad pun =.=


I would always question Shana's personal growth. I'm never sure whether the whole tsuntsun to tsundere progress is really growth. Sure, she found out about her love interest and the feeling known as jealousy but has she really matured as a human being? Point B is probably a bit too much about my personal preference so let's leave that aside for now, but shana is really immature and bratty from episode 2 all the way to the bloody last episode of S2. Have a think about how she treates the characters excpt yuuji...have those really changed?

In a sense, every character in Shakugan no Shana has gone through major character growth; from yuuji to the two punks that hangs around Margery, yoshida, meido and possibly alistor. Perhaps it's because everyone shone so brilliantly in the series that shana's slow growth is undermined?

as for shana v taiga? Taiga wins hand down since "sacrificing herself for the one she loves=the very angst that the nii enjoys"

can't wait till those last shana episodes can air faster so she can't get the hell out of Saimoe

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Re: soon, I shall dare for a harem with only tsunderes

Post by PimpToad on Sat Aug 14, 2010 8:35 am

I still don't get it Razz

Well its not just the progression of pure tsun into a tsundere due to the fact that she wasn't even aware she was being tsun in the first place. Again she is a rather emotionally stunted individual mostly due to her upbringing and her role as a flame haze. The fact that she has grown to understand, accept, and even embrace these feelings is evidence of her character development over the course of the anime. Given her supposed age (becoming a flame haze stunts aging apparently), she is still in the process of maturing as she is further exposed to the world around her. You should give the SnS Special a watch since it shows that Shana has in fact developed as a character. S2 didn't count since it was mostly filler and barely got anywhere with the source material; which now has 23 volumes and I'll hazard a guess that the anime has barely scratched 6...maybe 9?

I think it just seems that way due to her status as the main protagonist. The supporting cast can typically get an explosion of development in a couple of episodes, but her growth must be slow and steady as the story progresses along.

And yeah Taiga wins now, but it's not really a fair comparison since ToraDora is done and over with. Shana is still winning for me since I already found her character likable while I couldn't tolerate Taiga for a good 3/4's of the anime and only started becoming adorable around the penultimate episode. A good 10 volume's worth of material condensed into 25 episodes...it worked fairly well to be honest with you.

Still wondering how the hell Taiga won last year's Jap Saimoe. I suppose the last 2 episodes of disgustingly adorable fluff was enough to bury at least a good 75% worth of annoying tsuntsun?

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Re: soon, I shall dare for a harem with only tsunderes

Post by vin-nii on Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:56 pm

I guess what I want to criticize is that the only way that Shana grew is only romantically. The fact that she remains in a child-like state all except the realm of romance just doesn't sit well with me. Again, I blame the plot for not providing scanrios that promote her growth.

Then again, I believe the idea of shakugan no shana will never please me. Always remind me of an anime that can't decide whether it wants to be a romance or a action and had already two seasons pondering over it ...let's hope they've learnt their lesson

Well, I was a bone to pick with all Kugimiya Rie tsundere characters (part from the non-romantic nagi and the angsty Taiga). Ultimately it has the be the tsunderes with style Smile

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Re: soon, I shall dare for a harem with only tsunderes

Post by PimpToad on Tue Aug 17, 2010 5:39 am

Well she made great progress during S1, but S2 was pretty much filler city and the plot stagnated to that convoluted love triangle that didn't go anywhere. I question why they went the filler route when they had so much light novel material to work with...hopefully they avoid that shit with our precious Index2!

Well I think Kugimiya Rie's "Shana" voice put her on the map, but I could be wrong?

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Re: soon, I shall dare for a harem with only tsunderes

Post by vin-nii on Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:50 am

yeah it's on the map, just the wrong one Wink

And yes, the way Shana went about is simply too questionable... not as questionable as Haruhi S2 of course Smile

and Index 2? I have some doubts but it should be better than shana 2. My gut feeling tells me they'll start addressing Touma's memory loss plot device this round


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Re: soon, I shall dare for a harem with only tsunderes

Post by PimpToad on Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:49 am

Bah I smell Rie bias!

What possessed Kodansha? to go ahead with 8E8 episodes...but it still sold pretty well so apparently the Otaku will buy it so long as its Haruhi?

21 volumes in and we barely have any info to the memory wipe plot device. Though according to where they'll stop, we should get some insight into it...not all that much though.

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Re: soon, I shall dare for a harem with only tsunderes

Post by vin-nii on Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:49 am

Bah it's just louise and shana. Her tsundere characters are just not made out for non-comedy roamnce.

I think it's the idea of collecting and finishing the collection. Wouldn't want to have two akward gaos in the shelf, right?

huh, wonder how they'll use the memory wipe plot then Smile
Let's hope they're not too reckless and give us the bad stuff

one another note

Odin->Seiken->Thoth->Saki Mitama-> Daisoujou

Surely you understand what i'm talking about Smile


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Re: soon, I shall dare for a harem with only tsunderes

Post by PimpToad on Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:37 am

Her tsundere voice is just perfect for the child tsunderes she typically end up playing. But yeah I just don't see that voice fitting older tsunderes.

Could have been 6+ episodes of disappearance...oh well I guess I'll settle for the movie.

That's your current lineup? Odin is probably the best ultimate you can get normally without having to go through all the trouble of getting the right combination. Also best for wtf raping the reaper Very Happy

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Re: soon, I shall dare for a harem with only tsunderes

Post by vin-nii on Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:38 am

nope that how I got a daisoujou with thunder reign. took me a while to work around the Thoth-> Saki Mitama part but all's good now Smile Yeah I had to use Odin against reaper (didn't need to in FES ;-;. now also made a ragnarok othorus and a phanta rei titania for kicks. I don't have a permanent line-up, I just try to get through with Beelzel/ victory cry while everyone sit back and growth 3.

perhaps i'm just no good with child tsunderes. then again, nagi was pretty good so maybe an exception?

dissappearance? Bah I was never into haruhi to begin with. Need to dl the Break Blade movie ftw.

and endless waltz movie watched. nice underlying theme and somewhat poorly executed.


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Re: soon, I shall dare for a harem with only tsunderes

Post by PimpToad on Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:59 am

Someone spent some time fusing personae...but yeah I know how you feel. Getting your persona to have 3-4+ moves when there's only 5 max slots available is hell.

Well given that Rie is pretty much typecasted into the loli tsundere role, expect to see more of her in loli tsundere roles in the futures. And I can't blame them either...she does it pretty well even though it's a bit played now...

Kyon really made Haruhi such a great show for me. Gotta love the witty male leads even though he doesn't have the balls to voice it out loud Razz

...you already finished GWing? Damn dude...but yeah EW had a plot? I thought you just watched it for sheer awesomeness...kinda like FF7AC Razz

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Re: soon, I shall dare for a harem with only tsunderes

Post by vin-nii on Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:47 am

well my original plans were bolder (chimera with Ragnarok and angel will phanta) but they deemed pretty hard so...

Kyon is like the sterotypical male lead who's harem never really began I suppose. He has that aloofness but lack the childhood friend/ kind + cute girl catalyst to really bring out the man inside.

I give GWing a 9 man. it's pretty good and the plot is kinda messy but somewhat addicting.
EW is like a PS in a letter (if the letter talks about the possibility of total pacifist, then EW is the PS that says "hey, but you have to work hard for this peace") Wu Fei is a faggot in EW though

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Re: soon, I shall dare for a harem with only tsunderes

Post by PimpToad on Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:57 am

Chimera? Wow you are wasting fusions on throwaway persona? Though I did have a Chimera in FES...but that's just because you don't have a compendium to do much of anything...

The stereotypical male lead in a 'harem' anime is some brickhead dick who can't get his head out of his ass to see that there are several women wooing over him. And Kyon doesn't really have much of a harem since only 1...maybe 2 characters is a potential love interest. The rest are a part of fanfiction Razz

Huh I gave GWing a 7 just because I remember it as a snorefest till the Zero/Psycho System came out and things just got that much awesome. PS? And the mechs in EW just looks cool...Wing Zero and Death Scythe Custom are badass!

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Re: soon, I shall dare for a harem with only tsunderes

Post by vin-nii on Fri Aug 20, 2010 1:11 am

but chimera is cool looking! it has three heads (now i have to settle for two =.=)

well despute being overly cynical, Kyon is a pretty kind-hearted guy that can't ignore a dame in distress. doesn't that make him a sterotypical man already? he was just thrown into a non-harem situation

Well the whole idea of how to maintain peace (by total pacifist or total domination) struck me as a pretty cool theme. Probs since i do politics and all...

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Re: soon, I shall dare for a harem with only tsunderes

Post by PimpToad on Fri Aug 20, 2010 1:23 am

I think Kyon is just attracted to Haruhi and can't really deny her advances...though various factions telling him the world is FUBAR if he doesn't accommodate her may be why he's a "kind-hearted guy that can't ignore a dame in distress." Very Happy

That theme has been used and abused though...but that's just me. Still found GWing to be boring as hell, but I suppose it has been years since I watched it so...*shrugs*

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