VN talk

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VN talk

Post by vin-nii on Thu Jun 17, 2010 7:05 am

continue from FA chapter 11 (lol wut?)

The direct opoosite woukd be Kanon, where everyone's a childhood friend XD
ALso don't see Air and Clannad being any different.

Naturally, childhood friend is the easiest way to go? now how about a non-battle galge that DOES NOT have a tsundere?

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Re: VN talk

Post by PimpToad on Thu Jun 17, 2010 7:38 am

decided to just pub this section since its not like we talk about anything work related here Razz

Well Shiori wasn't a childhood friend and Mikoto (Makoto...forgot her name) isn't really your typical childhood friend. Key always pulls this crap so at least 1 heroine isn't related to the lead in some fashion.

I'd like to think that Clannad is a more tamed version of Air's lolmagic. I mean cmon the 'plot' of Air barely made any sense...oh look a crow! Though I suppose Air is superior in this regard given that the lolmagic is an established plot point while (imo) Clannad just pulled one out of its ass. We should look to Tomoyo After to see a "realistic" ending.

Hmm I'm not sure since the tsundere archetype is pretty much a must in this genre. The childhood friend trope is something that is highly desired but optional while tsunderes are a must!

...maybe Air? I don't really recall any of the 3 heroines being a -dere character in the slightest.

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Re: VN talk

Post by vin-nii on Thu Jun 17, 2010 8:12 am

Well, if they're all childhood friends that means it was a harem from the very begining... that might just be the only way to achieve a TRUE HAREM END (not like sharin's end gr...)

Clannad lolmagic is a dodgy plot device to insert a TRUE END and a BAD END into the same route. Now that all the emotion pretty much faded I guess you're really see how bad the final twist was...
Didn't read Tomoyo , but again I did read the manga (if it ended the same way ;-Wink

Didn't play Air either (anime only) so the incoherency wasn't as bad on my end. I actually like the Crow or maybe it's just my childhood dream to have a wild bird as my pet dunno :S
But Air's plot since man became crow became pretty annoying. Being frail is one thing but using it as a lead for lots of force drama is another problem altogether... then again, if you talk about force drama, all three of Key's work kinda flow that way. That being said Ayu is still the most annoying of them all

If we're talking about a standard galge Tsunderes and childhood friends are a must, no? Must if a character incoporates both (Rin, Asahi, Asuka...)

speaking of that, would Makoto (Kanon) be considered a tsundere (if so then tsundere, twintail, childhood friend, magical foxen, zettai rouki and some lolmagic XD)

and there's this too...

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Re: VN talk

Post by PimpToad on Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:32 am

Well I suppose it was a harem in a sense...one that was badly managed, but a harem nonetheless. And what was wrong with Sharin's lolharem end? Very Happy

I was never really privvy to the details of the Clannad BAD END since I can't be stuffed to go through an entire VN longer than FSN. I'm still rather irked at how After Story ended...wow the "climax" was such a huge disappointment coupled with KyoAni's insistence of ruining the mood with badly placed ed songs. And as far as I know, the TA manga pretty much compressed the entirety of the VN rather accurately...hence Shin's anger at Jun Maeda or something?

I had like a pet duck way back when...it died on me since it somehow froze to death. Seriously...how the hell do you freeze to death in tropical weather? And I think the 'crow' events took place after the farewell or some sort of memory wipe so there wasn't much forced drama there. Yukito was only an observer to the events of the only anime thus far that has managed to make me cry Razz

And yep Ayu is annoying Very Happy

My rather limited repertoire of commercial works has always yielded both tsunderes and childhood friends in every incarnation.

Damn Makoto is a hard character to pin since she fits into a lot of categories. She's already the childhood friend, but I suppose that role is mostly filled by Ayu even though practically all the heroines are childhood friends. She is also a furry if you consider what she truly is, but yes I reckon she fits the tsundere role. But is it considered tsundere when the girl in question is unaware of her own feelings and mostly act like that due to her own character? Then again she does only reserve such behavior for Yuichi so hmm...

Taiga is such a sad character. She's not hot enough to fulfill the role of MILF, but she's too old to be a serious love interest outside of fandom. I mean she could always play the teacher-route, but there's typically some form of arousal from said route that she fails to deliver. And besides...Rider-sensei fills that gap quite nicely indeed Wink

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Re: VN talk

Post by vin-nii on Thu Jun 17, 2010 1:17 pm

badly managed? the only way to cultivate a good relationship between MC and girl and still manage to remove the rivalry among the girls... played well and you will get yourself one good life XD. Nothing wrong with lolharem end, just really indecisive. I mean, even touka chose 'not to choose', what has Ken done?

Well the BAD END I refer to is the After Story end (minus collecting all the lights). The Clannad Bad Ends are mainly just Tomoya living out his virgin life till the end. There was no climax in Clannad (whatsoever). if you're talking about the imaginary meeting between Tomo-Nagi it was EPIC lol (though the events leading up to it was not).

American winter is pretty cold, no? I mean it snows n stuff X_X
but wasn't the 'crow' arc full of angst between Kana and her aunt? annoying scenario is annoying

well Makoto can't be considered a furry... at best a kitsune-mimi? (such as Horo... actually it sounds pretty good) Aren't all tsundere's to some degree unaware of their feelings (at the begining)? it just so happens the cinderella story ended before she realizes, or at the moment she realizes. For Makoto, we also have to consider her ultimate lolmagic desire which is Yuichi so not only does she not act tsundere around anyone else, she doesn't give a damn about them Smile

Taiga is kina like an 'unfappable guardian' of the other extreme. But I guess mysterious thief can be a start to bilding some sort of heroine, no? I mean, that whole equation might actually work if it wasn't Taiga O_O... much rather have Ayako route (but it'll be better as Yuri with Rider... :S)

and it's not Rider-sensei. it's CASTER-SENSEI!!! (S-grade waifu material)

on that note, i'm off to bed Smile

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Re: VN talk

Post by PimpToad on Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:12 am

Well from what we've seen so far, the only real way to manage a potential harem is to have your pick of the litter and ignore the rest as if they never existed to begin with. At least that is the standard formula for your typical galge? And Ken has decided to further cultivate his harem rather than taking the cowardly out by sticking to one woman Wink

I'm assuming the bad end for AS Clannads is the lack of lolmagic? I mean that's the only real (realistic) way it could be a bad end...hi TA! Very Happy And Nagi?

I believe I've told you that I live in Florida...the coldest its ever gotten here was around 30F and the summer weather is rather brutal. Well I'm from the tropics so its still rather pale in comparison, but let me complain for the sake of complaining ya?

Yes the crow arc was the most angst-filled arc of Air TV, but it was so well done. I have to find it deplorable if you didn't feel anything at all for the 'beach' scene and the 'reunion' scene.

Yeah I'm at odds on whether to call Makoto a furry since she doesn't exactly display the traits of one; such as Horo's tail. As for unaware tsunderes...you may have a point there. But I have to argue that for the tsun tsun to exist, so must the dere dere and a dere dere character is definitely aware of her feelings, but refuses to acknolwedge them, hence the tsun tsun aspect. I have to say that for a tsundere to exist, said character must have feelings for the protagonist whether that person is aware of said feelings or not. And I've pretty much blurred out what occurred in her route since she was rather low in my Kanon girls list...all I really remember was the whole wedding veil ending. I think she developed those romantic feelings as a 'human' in the end...I think?

Hey man rule of thumb...if you want to be a heroine in an eroge, you need an ero-scene Very Happy They need to release the eventual Tsukihime remake with the Sacchin route already so she can upgrade her status!

+1 for the Caster-sensei~!

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Re: VN talk

Post by vin-nii on Fri Jun 18, 2010 11:57 am

Well, if by not choosing makes you auto choose harem end then maybe you're right. But if he's too indecisive then that other guy will take Touka away ;-;

yeah that BAD END. but what's TA? nagi is Nagisa of course Wink

Air was onyl well done after the wole Kana's Dad came to visit thing. man that final scene was way too Epic. many manly tears were shed that night ;-;

In accordance with the anime (which bombed every arc except Makoto and cursed uguu girl),
Makoto surely felt like a tsundere. Lately, we've came up with two catergories of tsunderes; the mature (Asuka, Rin, Hina) and the bratty (louise, shana, taiga). guess that makes Makoto the latter?

Yes, we definitely need a Sacchin route that tragic girl. Then again, i hope the plot doesn't invovle Shiki trying to find RoaShiki and cure Sacchin of her curse since that'll be rather cliche. what I am looking forward to is the redraw of the red akiha in a kimono. Best scene in the whole damn VN

an eroge... where all thew heroine are teachers (student route are all fake trolling routes lol)...

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Re: VN talk

Post by PimpToad on Sat Jun 19, 2010 7:39 am

Hoho so you support incest end for Touka? :O

Ah right...but seems like a pointless nickname imo.

Air kind of meandered from mediocrity to a downright jewel towards the end. I mean it did put kyoani on the map and for good reason too!

I think a better categorization for a tsundere are those who are naturally tsuntsun and those who develop a tsuntsun characteristic as a defensive response to their newly acquired deredere side. Asuka is a classic example of the 'natural' tsundere since she was a bitch to begin with and was still a bitch even with the...'feelings' she eventually developed. She is basically a bitch to everyone except those who she has deredere feelings for. Hina would make a good example for the 'developed' tsundere since she reserves the tsuntsun and her deredere solely for Hayate. She becomes a completely different character only for her love interest; hence the 'developed' tsundere. I reckon Makoto is more along the lines of the 'developed' tsundere since she only reserves her bitch side for Yuichi most of the time.

I doubt the Sacchin arc would play out like that. Maybe it would early on, but Shiki will soon find out that the process of vampirization is impossible to reverse. I think it may be along the lines of Shiki trying to fulfill his promise to her and possibly trying to follow her...assuming Melty Blood is canon; which supposedly follows the Sacchin normal end. Vermilion Akiha with her Kimono is awesome...hell her entire route is awesome! We should get jenny to read Tsukihime Very Happy

Sadly it seems to me that teachers only get a route if the visual novel becomes popular enough to warrant an expansion...kinda like Sweet Honey Coming.

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Re: VN talk

Post by vin-nii on Sun Jun 20, 2010 3:46 am

no, I mean the side-kick. He's always getting it on with Touka (yes, better than YOU!!!!)

I guess the latter catergory of tsundere is more like the said subject trying to maintain her status quo? That being said, a tsundere (or just tsuntsun) main component is their initial pride. Minusing Yuichi out of the equation, Makoto may even come across as slightly timid. Her actions towards Yuichi are more mischievious than the aloof stance... kinda like a a imouto Taiga...

True End: Shiki kills the menacig vampiure Sacchi
Normal End: Shiki becomes the only food source for Sacchi and saved humanity...

wait, this sounds familiar :S

but yeah, Tsukihime is like literacy heritage lol. next agenda on chat Wink

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Re: VN talk

Post by PimpToad on Sun Jun 20, 2010 9:07 am

Ah Sepia, the obligatory male 'best friend' character? Though wasn't he in to MILFs rather than the...obnoxious Touka? Granted if I were given the option of choosing between the two, I think I may have to go with Kyouko!

I hold on to my classification of the tsundere! I think we can agree that a core facet of their personality is the "bitch." Granted varying levels of bitchiness, but a bitch nonetheless; at least to their love interest...for some odd reason?

I think for Sacchin True End, he'll probably end up killing the parent vampire (Roa) to break his old over Sacchin. It would just be odd to kill Sacchin, but not Roa in a vampire route...well that and Roa has to die in all routes since he is the main antagonist after all.

I guess both Sacchin and Roa can die for her normal end?

From what I hear, Nasu used some pretty funky grammar during the writing of Tsukihime. Something about a fascination with mollusks as well as other things iirc.

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Re: VN talk

Post by vin-nii on Sun Jun 20, 2010 11:24 am

huh...I thought Sepia x Touka makes a pretty good baka-couple Smile

I'm actually to begin to think there's no personality known as a 'tsundere'. Tsuntsuns and deredere's are personalities, but 'tsundere' is more like a reaction they have on a particular incident. if tsun is the bitch and dere is the lamb, it doesn't really make sense to be a bitchy lamb 24hrs a day for 'normal tsunderes' like Asuka, she would be a tsuntsun. This way of thinking allows normal girls to also have a moment of tsundere without jumping out of their 'down-to-earth' charcteristics

Well, I guess the main point would be whether killing the parent = cure for vampirism in the Nasverse. I guess my two possible ending based itself around the idea that there is no cure...

if this counts as one of the inner routes (or another catergory althogether), a possiblity is Sacchi sacrfices herself to dodge a bullet for Shiki (against Roa). Sacchi survives and Shiki becomes her only food source (without going crazy like Akiha's route) or something along those lines might happen too. Regardless a 'No GOOD END' situation is highly possible I reckon...

whose's facination with mollusks for we talking about?

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Re: VN talk

Post by PimpToad on Mon Jun 21, 2010 4:22 am

Meh the boke-tsukkomi play they keep on doing got old pretty quick. I can see why Sepia went for the 'mature' Kyouko-chan~ Very Happy

Well is tsundere even a personality to begin with? I mean if we think about it, a tsundere is nothing more than a combination between your bitchy side and your shy, timid side that you most often only display to your potential lover. It's kinda like having a tough as nails cutthroat bitch for a girlfriend, but she becomes putty behind close doors and that facet of her personality is reserved for you and you alone. The tsundere has probably reached internet meme status given that it doesn't really exist, but is part of the many facets that make up your personality? Kinda like that little boy who always teases the little girl because he doesn't know how to deal with his newfound feelings for her...the male tsundere? Very Happy

Nah its confirmed in Melty Blood that the vampirization process is irreversible. Killing the parent vampire removes their grip off their vampiric offspring; meaning that Sacchin would be "free" in a sense if Roa is dead.

I think this would probably be an near-side route since it has to deal with vampires. The far-side routes only dealt with the demonic blood of the Tohno clan. You forget that Shiki only became like that in Akiha's route due to practical reasons; one of those being that he didn't really want people like Ciel hunting down his IMOUTO...

I think the mollusks and other sea creatures, especially those with tentacles, being provided as a description for the ero scenes?

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Re: VN talk

Post by vin-nii on Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:08 am

oh they're close enough to fight all the time, why not imagine them going a step further Wink

an internet meme status? I thought the term does exist within the Japanese otaku dictionary :S
Ahh the little boy who bullies the girl he likes routine Very Happy It's like a reaction towards certain situations...which is part of what makes up his personality... huh, guess you're right

But Sacchin will still be a blood-thirsty fiend of the night DX
Another question is will we be dealing with a vampired Sacchin? I mean, sacchi's route may well be Shiki protecting an actual 'normal girl' against vampires and monster blood people Smile

tentacles + ero scene? I like where that is going Wink

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Re: VN talk

Post by PimpToad on Tue Jun 22, 2010 3:26 am

Incest route a la Air? Yukito is one sick bastard...but I suppose it wasn't really incest so its OKAY! Very Happy

Hmm I suppose tsundere is a part of the otaku lexicon, but is it actually an official word?

I think we may deal with a Sacchin undergoing vampirization. You gotta remember that she became a full fledged vampire at a highly accelerated pace. What took some ghouls decades, centuries even, took her no more than a couple of weeks give or take. Hell she even has her own Reality Marble so he is a prodigy amongst human turned vampires. I think Shiki may find out about Sacchin after she goes on a batshit insane massacre like Nero and the hotel? Girls gotta eat!

Yeah too lazy to do a search on it right now, but rather amusing how he equated seafood and sex Razz

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Re: VN talk

Post by vin-nii on Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:47 am

lol wut? we're still talking about Sharin right? what incest?

I think it's an otaku made-up word kinda thing, lemme check wiki... it just said it was orginally deviated from a bishoujo games than there were da tsundere boom. Kinda like english words like 'hip' and 'fad'? the fact that the so-called 'normal' part of japanese community doesn't really fancy Otaku japan probs mean that this word ain't gonna be official for a while

so realizing Sacchin's thirst will be put off the mid-end game... this might be a good way to go (the girl in class+ mysterious [s]thief[/s]monster = moe theory?). So shiki goes on this sherlock holmes kinda thing (persumably with either Ciel or Arc) until the first massacre, then the climax would be stopping the second one from coming?

well they're both squishy...um...yeah =.=

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Re: VN talk

Post by PimpToad on Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:26 am

No no I'm talking about the 'incest' in Air...though I suppose Sharin has its own version of 'incest' as well. Sadly only a few animu has ever crossed the actual line...pity Sad

And so tsundere is only a part of the otaku lexicon then. Not that I care all that much, but they gotta add the yandere~ into the official dictionary. Just cuz yanderes are awesome Razz

I really want to see how the vampirization process occurs in the nasuverse. I don't really think any of the current Tsukihime routes ever broached the topic. And yeah it could start off with Sacchin not appearing in class anymore and since she's the heroine, the protagonist actually notices that she ain't there! Though the odd part is that Sacchin is really only covered in the far-side routes, but the vampire aspect is more of the near-side route. Hmm I'm wondering if we have to pay attention to the crow or ignore it...

TENTACLE RAEP FTW?

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Re: VN talk

Post by vin-nii on Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:51 am

there's incest in Air??? Make note I'm watching the anime so the line was never crossed (I got a feeling who it is so spoil away XD)

yandere is too scary. I might be okay with her, but I don't want all my female friends to die for our sake ;-;
The opposite of a tsundere... is a person who acts deredere, when she is tsuntsun inside... acting all cute when they're a moe blob of evil... *shivers*...deretsun?

now the opposite of a yandere will be... a tsundere O_O???

u mean how they change after they get bitten? You've made a pretty good point but it unlikely for them to get into detail, especially in your scenario.

Lol yeah the crow!!!! Also where would Sacchin's route fit in, since Tsukihime also has some sort of order you have to go through (Arc-Akiha->Hisui->Kohaku in that order, The Indian route can be done anytime). For all you know, Sacchin's route might overtake Kohaku has the VN's BEST END!!! It would be cool if they give a bigger role to Chaos too...

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Re: VN talk

Post by PimpToad on Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:08 pm

...I think all 3 routes pretty much had incest...actually amusing if you think about it Very Happy And yeah VN only...pretty much a given there buddy Razz

I think we of the male variety will be the one doing all the dying...hi School Days! Very Happy And a yandere is pretty much just a tsundere to the next level?

Well the thing is that going by normal vampirization standard, Sacchin should have turned into a DEAD first. Once she has gained some form of consciousness, she should have then turned into a GHOUL I believe and continued the natural progression into a full-fledged vampire. Sacchin pretty much bypassed this natural progression and pretty much became a full vampire from the get go...hell she was even packing a Reality Marble! So suffice to say, watching how she evolved at such a highly accelerated rate that would have at least taken several decades at the least would be interesting to read.

Nah Kohaku is pretty much the ultimate good end for Shiki so I doubt it could be better than that. Though I suppose it could be sadder than Akiha's route?

And man FUCK YEAH GYAKUTEN SAIBAAAAAAAAAAN! Seriously...has to be the most epic orchestral rendition of a video game ost...

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Re: VN talk

Post by vin-nii on Thu Jun 24, 2010 3:02 am

i thought yandere is a deredere on the outside but a demon on the inside...in a sense that exactly what a tsundere is not O_O

you;ve made a good point about the abnormal growth there, completely missed that O_O
so there'll be that explainantion... maybe using arcruied as some sort of catalyst plot device?
I always thought that Ciel Good would actually be the best route since Shiki gets to meet everyone and Kohaku didn't turn into a deredere. there can be nothing sadder than the Akiha route and nothing greater than the Hisui route... to conclude tohno house routes> vampire routes

you gotta admit, it's one of the better OST one can listen to Smile

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Re: VN talk

Post by PimpToad on Thu Jun 24, 2010 6:45 am

Hmm demon? I always thought the yanyan side was of the batshit insane i love you stalker type deals. Rather than a more defensive response like the tsundere, it has more to do of the possessive and jealous nature of an otherwise shy and timid girl. Of course one only has to look at the poster girl for the yandere! Ah School Days...you were made of awesome!

Your Nasu no Jutsu needs some work Razz

Hmm the real problem is that Arcueid never really appeared in the far-side routes and Ciel only appeared early on before disappearing altogether. The only time we ever really see Sacchin become a vampire is during said routes so I highly doubt Arc would play any part in this at all.

Well I suppose for a global good end Ciel would work best, but you gotta remember that nothing was resolved at all if we go by this route. Akiha never really got fleshed out, we don't know why Hisui pulled a 180, and of course Kohaku is still plotting something. I've always thought that the girl who suffered the most got the best end in the story or at least somewhere close to the 'canon' end. Sakura of FSN got paid in kind and so should Kohaku Razz

And yeah the story of Shiki really went a lot better than the story of Tsukihime as a whole. I hope they maintain that sort of format in Tsuki2 just because ignoring the character development we've seen in these 3 routes would be a shame!

One specific track made me wet myself...was that good Embarassed
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Re: VN talk

Post by vin-nii on Thu Jun 24, 2010 8:21 am

yanyan? aren't we talking about Rena (or the entire Higurashi cast) and school days? well, stalker too but demonic features can also exist. Also, I don't think the dere here applies to the shy types, but just normal girls in gernal... then again, is Rena an actual yandere O_O???

Arcuried might have came out while we're not watching. I mean you can't really Sacchin...unless she's also something inhuman or the 'power of love conquers all' and her love for Shiki was able to drag her entire consciousness out of the ghoul state.

well I guess KT took care of all that and created the best end (same of Ataraxia where all the servants became lawful neutral and lived happily ever after for the 4 days). Happy Kohaku surrounded by sunflowers was kinda nice too Smile

and what do u mean by 'And yeah the story of Shiki really went a lot better than the story of Tsukihime as a whole'?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNwbkPtDUU0

XD

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Re: VN talk

Post by vin-nii on Thu Jun 24, 2010 8:33 am

btw, if I want to do a printscreen of an anime scene, which player would be the best for it?

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Re: VN talk

Post by PimpToad on Thu Jun 24, 2010 10:33 am

Easiest player I know of is MPC-HC

YANYAN! Very Happy
Hmm I don't really think Rena is a yandere since we know her...unique moments were umm hmm how can I say this without having to use spoilers? Anyway you should know what I'm talking about! I think that's the crux of the yandere so to speak. They are usually full deredere shy, timid characters to the extreme, but they unleash this psychotic side of them unheard of until a love interest comes into play. And I think School Days pretty much made the yandere popular Razz

Well the problem is that the far-side gang doesn't even know Arcueid exists; there should be a doujinshi of it I think. And the thing is that we already have a partial Sacchin route, but it all pretty much ends badly for her. She was already a vampire by the time Shiki crossed paths with her. Now whether she was packing a RB remains to be seen, but the fact that she was more than aware of her surroundings and was fully conscious just shows how much she has progressed in mere days.

Gotta admit that Kohaku and Sakura deserved their happy ends after the shit they went through. You gotta love it how having a sister in the Nasuverse pretty much guarantees heroine status, but you just know 1 of em is going to draw the short end of the stick Razz

The Plus+Disc covered that? Explained how one should treat the near-side routes as dealing with the core Tsukihime story (vampires and Arcueid since she is the main heroine) while the far-side routes deal with the story of Tohno Shiki (should be pretty self-explanatory after reading through Akiha route).

And nah the rock version just pales in comparison to the orchestra version. Best thing I've heard in vgost land in awhile.

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Re: VN talk

Post by vin-nii on Sat Jun 26, 2010 3:00 pm

gah wall of text X_X

I think school days was the first to coin the yandere term. Is yandere some sort of mutli-personality disorder or can it be one's true nature? Personally, I tend to stay away from yandere discussions because it makes me remember how creepy those characters were (School days, Shuffle, higurashi)... *shivers* I remember I couldn't sleep the night i finished the first 3 episodes of higurashi

Remember that Sacchi plays a role in both routes (to some extent). Tsukihime 2(or more specifically Sacchi's route) may not follow the orthodox route catergories. I would hate to think that Sacchin was originally a non-human/ special human befoer the vampirisation. But let us see...

sisters= one gets the short end of the stick Wink

didn't quite comprehend that last paragraph

nor did I comprehend the final sentence. Rock is God sunny

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